Moving Energy Education Forward
WBAI's Robert Knight interviews Arnie Gundersen about the risks of cancer in Fukushima Prefecture, Japan and the world as a whole. Points of interest in interview: 1.) Japan to see a cancer increase of 20 to 30 percent, perhaps even higher in Fukushima 2.) “There should be grave concern in Japan” 3.) Japan gov’t deliberately downplaying significance
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Vermont Public Radio's John Dillon interviews Arnie Gundersen about the situation at Vermont Yankee.
Host: The Vermont Yankee nuclear power plant is still operating below full power because of a failed reactor pump. Plant officials hope to make repairs soon. Other maintenance is scheduled during a re-fueling outage that begins next week. But industry observers say that more costly work will be postponed until the future of the plant is more certain. VPR's John Dillon reports.
Dillon: Late last weekend, a large pump used to circulate water around the reactor vessel, tripped off line. The pump's motor generator had failed. Larry Smith is a Vermont Yankee spokesman. He says repairs have taken longer than planned.
Smith: "It's a huge electro-mechanical unit that actually controls the speed of this pump that circulates millions of gallons of water in the reactor. So it's an electrical problem on this motor generator set that we've just had difficulty getting repaired."
Dillon: Yankee has two of the large re-circulating pumps. They're not considered safety equipment. But along with fuel rods, the pumps are used to control the plant's power output.
Smith: "And if you take one of those pumps out of service power automatically drops to 50 percent, so we're sitting at 46 percent power as we speak."
Dillon: Smith says technicians hope to repair the pump before a refueling outage that starts at the end of next week. The outages take place every 18 months. And Yankee uses the down time to do essential repairs or maintenance work.
Gundersen: "This outage is probably going to be a real quick one. They'll refuel and do some minimal inspections and minimal repairs."
Dillon: Arnie Gundersen is a nuclear engineer who has followed Vermont Yankee closely over the years. The plant is facing an uncertain future -the Shumlin Administration wants it closed next year. Gundersen says major expenses have been put off to the future outages.
Gundersen: "In 2013 they've decided to do a lot of inspections, including testing the containment and testing some hard to get to welds in the reactor. And that's going to take a lot more time than a normal outage. Then the next big one is 2015, and that's the one where they've gotten capital permission from Entergy to spend over $100 million."
Dillon: Much of that $100 million dollars will be used to replace the plant's condenser - a key component use to cool steam and turn it back to liquid water. The condenser contains thousands of tubes, some of which have started to leak. Yankee spokesman Larry Smith says technicians will make all necessary repairs and will not take any shortcuts in next week's outage.
Smith: "It's again work that was planned over 18 months ago. We haven't changed anything as a result of what's going on."
Dillon: Smith says the inspection and maintenance work includes 5,000 individual tasks and involves about 1,000 additional workers. For VPR News, I'm John Dillon in Montpelier.
WBAI radio host Robert Knight and Fairewinds' chief engineer Arnie Gundersen discuss the many times during the past few months, nuclear power plants have been pushed beyond their design limits. Emergency diesels, off-site power and other components have frequently failed.
Host: A federal review prompted by the recent Japanese nuclear disaster recommends that plants such as Vermont Yankee adopt new safety upgrades. Vermont Yankee says it doesn't yet know how much the changes will cost. VPR's John Dillon reports.
Dillon: The earthquake and tsunami that struck last March disabled emergency generators and left the Japanese reactors without power from the electric grid.
Sheehan: "So they had no ability to get power to the pumps to get the water in to the fuel in the reactor covered and cooled."
Dillon: Neil Sheehan is a spokesman for the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
Sheehan: "So that is going to be a primary focus: How do we increase the ability to get power to these sites."
Dillon: An NRC task force says that in light of the Japanese disaster, U.S. plants should have systems in place to keep fuel cool for 72 hours. The task force also made specific recommendations for U.S. reactors, such as Vermont Yankee, that share the same design as the stricken Japanese nuclear power plants. The commission says vents need to be strengthened so the hydrogen gas can be released before it explodes. Neil Sheehan:
Sheehan: "Essentially the issue is if they have melting of fuel, it can lead to production of hydrogen. And as we saw at Fukishima Dai'ichi, that led to explosions."
Dillon: Vermont Yankee spokesman Larry Smith says the plant already installed hardened vents - a modification he says was made in the 1980s. But Sheehan says the Japanese reactors had similar vents - but that they didn't work when they were supposed to. So the NRC wants the owners of reactors like Yankee to show that the vents can operate in the extreme heat and pressure of an accident.
Sheehan: "They have these vents. What can they do to ensure that they're going to be available and properly functioning during an event like this."
Dillon: Nuclear engineer Arnie Gundersen is a frequent critic of the Yankee design. He says the vents were installed because the reactor containment itself was inadequate. But opening the vents, he says, defeats the purpose of the containment structure itself, which is designed to contain radiation.
Gundersen: "The industry's position is that letting the radiation out is better than blowing the containment up. And my opinion is that neither are acceptable and that the containment is the problem, and that it either needs to be fixed - strengthened - or shut down."
Dillon: Gundersen says all the changes recommended by the NRC will cost Yankee about $100 million. That's on top of other expensive repairs needed if the plant operates for another 20 years. Gundersen has a prediction about Entergys Vermont Yankee's response:
Gundersen: "I think if Vermont Yankee is allowed to operate, the net effect will be it'll be too costly to make the repairs and Entergy will make an economic decision to shut it down."
Dillon: Entergy is still committed to keeping the plant operating for another 20 years. Yankee spokesman Larry Smith says the industry wants to work with the NRC to implement the changes. He says it's too early to come up with an accurate cost estimate. For VPR News, I'm John Dillon in Montpelier.
https://vimeo.com/25833682
Gundersen says "sandbags and nuclear power shouldn't be put in the same sentence, but it is a lot better than Fukushima." Gundersen explains that Ft. Calhoun was already shut down and has much less decay heat. He stresses that the auxiliary building and containment building are not his major concern. A small building, the intake structure, which contains the emergency service water pumps is needed for cooling the nuclear fuel and should be protected. Another Nuclear Plant, Cooper (about 90 miles south of Ft. Calhoun), is still running and poses a bigger threat because of it's decay heat. Gundersen believes that both Nuclear Plants will "ride out" this problem, as long as an upstream dam does not break. If an upstream dam were to break, he says, "All bets are off".
YELLIN: Let's get some perspective now on the safety of nuclear power plants in the U.S. and look at some possible worst case scenarios.
We're joined by nuclear safety advocate Arnie Gundersen. Arnie, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission says the situation at Ft. Calhoun is under control, that this will not be a repeat of what we saw in Japan. In your view, case closed?
ARNIE GUNDERSEN, NUCLEAR SAFETY ADVOCATE: Well, sandbags and nuclear power shouldn't be put in the same sentence, but it is a lot better than Fukushima. The real reason why is, they were shut down in April and their management decided not to start them back up.
Now, nuclear atoms split, and these split pieces give off a lot of heat. But after two months, there's not anywhere near as much heat.
So, to compare it to Fukushima is wrong. It's a real problem, but it's not a Fukushima level problem at all.
YELLIN: We're looking at pictures right now -- I don't know if you can see them. But when you take a look, are you already concerned about the emergency pumps possibly flooding? I mean, they are covered in water. What happens after that?
GUNDERSEN: Well, I think the focus has been on those two big buildings. The auxiliary building and the containment. Really, it's not those buildings I'm concerned about.
There's a little building out by the water and it's called the intake structure. And in there is an emergency service water pump. That's the pump that cools the nuclear fuel. So, it's important that that building not flood any more because if the emergency service pumps get flooded, they won't be able to cool that nuclear reactor.
YELLIN: OK. Now, Ft. Calhoun as you point out, it's been shut down since April. Then there's Cooper Nuclear Plant, which is about 90 miles south of Ft. Calhoun, it's a different story.
So, why are you more concerned about Cooper?
GUNDERSEN: Well, Cooper's still running, and again, those pieces -- if Cooper were to shut down now, the heat produced would be 100 times more than the heat at Ft. Calhoun, a lot more heat to get rid of.
Now, it's also the identical reactor to Fukushima. It's a boiling water reactor, just like it.
If I were the management of Cooper, I'd really think about shutting down so that you get ahead of the problem, so that there's less of those decayed products to generate heat.
YELLIN: Do you have any immediate concern for the people who are living nearby?
GUNDERSEN: You know, short of an upstream dam failure, I think they'll ride this one out. If an upstream dam were to fail, all bets are off. So, I think the key is to keep an eye on the upstream dams.
YELLIN: Now, if you were consulting a team at Ft. Calhoun and Cooper right now, what advice would you give them?
GUNDERSEN: Well, Ft. Calhoun, you know, they got taken to the woodshed about 18 months ago and have made a lot of modification since. Now, why the NRC waited 30 years to do that is a question.
But, right now, with the modifications they've made and being shut down for two months, I don't really think they can do much more except wait and hope the water doesn't get high.
Down at Cooper, though, my advice would be to shut down now and ride it out.
YELLIN: All right. Arnie Gundersen, thank you so much. Let's hope all goes well there and continues as it has.
GUNDERSEN: Thanks for having me.
Gundersen says "sandbags and nuclear power shouldn't be put in the same sentence, but it is a lot better than Fukushima." Gundersen explains that Ft. Calhoun was already shut down and has much less decay heat. He stresses that the auxiliary building and containment building are not his major concern. A small building, the intake structure, which contains the emergency service water pumps is needed for cooling the nuclear fuel and should be protected. Another Nuclear Plant, Cooper (about 90 miles south of Ft. Calhoun), is still running and poses a bigger threat because of it's decay heat. Gundersen believes that both Nuclear Plants will "ride out" this problem, as long as an upstream dam does not break. It an upstream dam were to break, he says, "All bets are off".
WBAI's Robert Knight discusses the ongoing situation at the flooded Ft. Calhoun nuclear plant with Fairewinds' Arnie Gundersen.
"Five O'Clock Shadow" with Robert Knight: On June 6, 2011, the Fort Calhoun pressurized water nuclear reactor 20 miles north of Omaha, Nebraska entered emergency status due to imminent flooding from the Missouri River. A day later, there was an electrical fire requiring plant evacuation. Then, on June 8th, NRC event reports confirmed the fire resulted in the loss of cooling for the reactor's spent fuel pool. The discussion includes specific details of the technical failures at Fort Calhoun, the risks of coolant loss at overcrowded "spent" fuel pools, and the national hazards of nuclear facilities along the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers, and other water sites during the current period of floods and climate change.
Robert Knight Radio Show, in early June 2011, Part 1 of 3
Announcer: Well today OPPD declares a notification of unusal events at the Fort Calhoun Nuclear Power Station. OPPD did not want KMTV Action 3 News to shoot this video. But because the Missouri River is a public waterway, we feel it is our job and our right to show the
public what is happening at the Fort Calhoun Nuclear Power Station.
Water in many places already up to the buildings, with the flood expected to rise another 5 feet or more this summer. And we are told no release of radioactive material has happened or is expected.
Robert Knight: This is 5 o’clock Shadow on the Pacifica Radio Network. I’m Robert Knight in New York. We continue today our coverage of developing events at the Fort Calhoun Nuclear Power Plant in Nebraska, just north of the major city of Omaha. During our last report, it was revealed that there had been a Level 4 emergency declared at the plant because of the imminence of flooding from the Missouri River. The Army Corps of Engineers advised that the height of the river would be reaching, or soon exceeding, 1,004 feet above median sea level. And in that interval, the plant was required to go into emergency operations to defend and protect against flooding, of which there have been problems in the past at that plant with leakage passageways at the junctions of walls and of pipes and other related items.
During our last report, yet more news came in that during the day, there was a fire, an electrical fire, in a basement of that nuclear power plant, that caused an evacuation of the plant from approximately 9:30 or 9:40 a.m. local time until after 1 p.m., approximately 1:30 p.m. local time.
During that time, part of the plant was rendered inaccessible because of poisonous gasses and gasses that were used to extinguish the electrical fire. It gets even worse. We now know that the systems that were incapacitated by that fire at this nuclear power plant called Fort Calhoun in Nebraska . . . It had been shut down for refueling, but this electrical fire incapacitated parts of the cooling system for the spent fuel pool. Listeners might recall that one of the great hazards at Fukushima is the tremendously over the fact spent fuel pool at unit #4.
This is an important story and we are honored to have with us one of the most prominent experts on these issues, Arnie Gundersen, a former nuclear power plant operator and Chief Advisor for Fairewinds Associates. Arnie Gundersen, what is the latest you know about what is going on and what has happened and been minimized in the reportage generally about the situation at Fort Calhoun?
Arnie Gundersen: Thank you for having me. Your summary was really excellent. The sandbags and nuclear power plants really do not belong in the same sentence and now we are seeing one that is literally putting sandbags up to reinforce themselves against the
flood. I think the real issue here is why are we having the flood?
There is a lot of snow in the Rockies this year, more so than a long time, and all of the dams upstream are full. So all of them are just opening up their water and letting it cascade down to the next dam, which is letting it cascade down to the next dam.
The plant was designed against a flood. It cannot get much worse than this or else it is going to breech the walls. But my concern is, what if the dam breaks? That would be the equivalent of the Fukushima tsunami. These dams are filled to the brim and there is more than one, so it doesn’t mean that the one that is immediately upstream has to break, it is any one of the series has to break, which could inundate this like Fukushima was with essentially an inland tsunami. The dams are not structurally sound or built to the same standards as the nuclear plant, but in fact, the nuke plant is now relying on the integrity of something that is basically a big earthen berm.
Robert Knight: If one of these almost like an electrical circuit in series, resistors in series, if these dams, which we might liken to resistors, any one of them broke, that would put extra stress on all the ones downstream of it, would it not?
Arnie Gundersen: That is correct. It will probably ride out the storm if the storm doesn’t get any worse. They are within a foot or two of what they were designed for and hopefully, it looks like at the flows that are coming out of the dams as the Corps of Engineers has opened the valves, they can just barely get by. But if Mother Nature throws us a knuckle ball here, all bets are off.
Robert Knight: We have seen reports that the water is already treading on the edges and the walls of this nuclear power plant.
There was a television station near the nuclear power site that, despite the admonitions of the nuclear power company because the Missouri River is a public waterway, went boating up to the edge of the plant and saw it at the jeapardy of the encroaching water, 1,004 feet above sea level going up and the Weather Service and the Army Corps of Engineers says that it is expected to do nothing but rise until well into the summer of this year 2011.
Generically speaking, Arnie Gundersen, plant operator and advisor on nuclear issues for Fairewinds Associates, what is wrong with water in a nuclear power plant? What are the hazards in the basement?
Arnie Gundersen: There is safety related equipment that when the nuclear chain reaction stops and this plant is shut down, it was shut down in April for a routine refueling, and then they said, oh my god we got this flood coming, we better NOT start it back up. It was scheduled to be running by now. But even though it is shut down, there still is an enormous amount of heat left over from the particles that are left behind called radioactive “daughter” products. And we have seen that at Fukushima. The plant is still steaming because of all of that residual heat, called decay heat.
You have got to get rid of that, even after you have shut down the plant and so there are pumps, like the ones that failed last night, that are required to run for months, even years, after the plant is shut down, to keep the nuclear core cool. And of course the concern last night was that two pumps failed in the fire, not the nuclear core, it remained cooled through a different set of pumps, but the pumps that failed last night didn’t cool the fuel pool, so the fuel pool began to get hot. They recovered the pumps and the fuel pool cooled back down again. We all have Fukushima in our minds. Units 4 and Unit’s 3 fuel pool are sitting there smoldering, right on the edge of boiling, and normally these things should be at roughly 60 or 70 degrees. So they are not designed to boil in a nuclear fuel pool.
Robert Knight: In the process of refueling this Fort Calhoun Nuclear Power Plant, does the main assembly, the nuclear pile, does it stay inside the reactor, or is the whole assembly moved to a spent fuel pool? Where is the fuel, I understand that about one third of it, one third of the columns of uranium and perhaps other oxides, were to have been taken out and replaced. Where is that stuff? Is it in the reactor or in the spent fuel pool and what would you estimate to be the capacity of radioactive materials in the pool? And as a follow up to that, Arnie Gundersen, does heating tempt the process of zircaloy hydrogenization?
Arnie Gundersen: There was one third of the nuclear core that has been removed and is in the fuel pool, along with many other nuclear cores. There is 20 years or more worth of nuclear cores in the fuel pool. That is on the pumps that failed last night. So that that generates an enormous amount of heat. The closest example that I could tell you is Fukushima 4, which you recall the pictures of steam just pouring out of that fuel pool. Without water, that fuel pool would boil dry in several days.
Well, the NRC’s position is that you don’t need to call that an emergency pump, because you have several days and you can always spray water in and things like that. The problem with that argument is, that as it is boiling, or approaching boiling, it releases an enormous amount of humidity and that wipes out all of the electrical wiring in the containment. So you don’t want to get anywhere near boiling, and I don’t know that the NRC really understands that issue yet.
The other issue of what is in the nuclear reactor, there is fresh fuel plus two thirds of the nuclear core and the pumps that cool the nuclear reactor, the NRC considers safety related. The pumps that cool the fuel pool, the NRC says are not. And those are in separate cooling systems. They were not involved in the fire last night. But the flood is encroaching on all of that wire. Unlike Fukushima, the diesels are high enough, so that as the flood comes up they will probably be able to retain diesel power. Unless there is a bigger wave from a dam collapse. I think that is the lesson here, that Mother Nature can throw things at us that we did not anticipate.
Let’s hope that a flood like the one we are seeing is as bad as it is going to get.
Robert Knight: This is 5 o’clock Shadow on the Pacifica Radio Network. I’m Robert Knight in New York and that’s Arnie Gunderson in Vermont.
Arnie, one of the beauties of this kind of listener sponsored broadcasting is that we can look in more depth than the superfficial ways in which much nuclear news is being covered if at all. In the past day and a half or so, most conventional press reports simply said well, there was no danger of the release of radiation and did NOT sufficiently, in our opinion, address the issue of the potential heating up of the spent fuel well, the loss of monitoring, or the loss of cooling sytems and such.
Because we have this opportunity, I’d like you, as a nuclear expert, to help us walk through the nuclear event reports from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. As of the 7th of June 2011, there was not a report on that day of the electrical fire, after the flooding emergency was declared on the 6th of June.
However, today we now have some items from the NRC’s event reports, which, if anybody needs a frightening bedtime story, just read these each and every day. Arnie, I’d like to actually take some time to be very specific with you so you can translate this for our audience. OK?
Arnie Gundersen: OK, go ahead.
Robert Knight: This is the nuclear event report for the 8th of June, 2011 in regard to the Fort Calhoun Nuclear Power Plant. I’m going to read four segments seriatum. Beginning at about 9:30 Central Daylight Time, the licensee noted fire in the west switchgear room. The fire brigade responded and found a room filled with smoke but no active fire. Halon did discharge in the room. At 09:56 CDT, offsite assistance was called and Blair Fire Department responded to the site. Blair Fire Department confirmed no active fire in the switchgear room. All offsite power remained available as well as the emergency diesel generators if needed. The licensee is currently attempting to ventilate the room, a thorough inspection of the affected area, and determine the cause of the electrical thought will be facilitated once the room has been fully ventilated.
What is a switch gear room and what level of disorder was taking place at that time?
CNN's John King and Arnie Gundersen discuss "hot particles" detected in Seattle and Japan, the cozy relationship between Japanese regulator NISA (Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency) and plant owner TEPCO, and changes at the Fukushima accident site since March.
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